Pushing pedal/knee combos when playing?

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 2 Dec 2001 7:08 pm

I attended JN's seminar once and asked him if it was proper to engage the AB pedals when both pedals did not pull both strings and he said "Yes".
Example in the key of C
1. When playing strings 5 and 8 or 4 and 5, do most players push A and B even tho B is not used? With the E's lowered on the LKR, when going from 3A to 1A to 1D, do most players push 3AB then 1AB then 1BD? or do they play 3A the 1A then lift off the pedals completely and play 1D?
2. Strings 4,5 and 6 in two and three string combos going from 3AB to 4AF. IF one plays all three strings then the AF combo has to be used at the 4th fret but if playing only strings 5 and 6 then the F lever is not required. Do most players push the lever anyway?
3. Same situation with a 345 string cobo. When playing strings 3 and 5, do you push the D lever with A pedal going from fret 3 to 4? If a three note grip would have been played, the D lever would have been needed.
4. I would like to hear some comments on the above situations.

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dben@lycos.com
dben@shaw.ca[This message was edited by Don Benoit on 08 December 2001 at 05:23 PM.]

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 2 Dec 2001 7:35 pm

Oh-----why yes---er ahhhh --no - well wait-- hmmmmmm--- I'm takin the 5th (or at least some of it) and going to bed and sleep on that one !!!!!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Dec 2001 7:57 pm

So Jeff said it was proper? Well, I won't argue with him. I will add, though, that I don't make it a "habit" to activate pedals when they have no effect...seems like wasted effort, to me.

John Bresler R.I.P. · Post by **John Bresler R.I.P.** » 2 Dec 2001 8:04 pm

Even Jeff Newman says it's ok to push both pedals because it does save time, but I rock my foot between the A & B pedals depending on which pedal I need for the particular lick.

I personally believe it also helps you understand better which strings are activated with which pedal. The more you understand the fretboard and pedals the better player you will be.

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 2 Dec 2001 9:16 pm

Let me explain a little more. Say you are playing strings 5 and 8 and you are at the first fret with A pedal engaged and you want to go to the D lever from there. If you don't have both A and B pushed then you have to make two motions. First you have to lift your leg vertically to disengage the A pedal then move horizonally to engage the D lever. That's two motions in two different directions, whereas if you already have both pedals down, it only takes a horizontal motion to disengage the A pedal and engage the D lever.[This message was edited by Don Benoit on 02 December 2001 at 09:17 PM.][This message was edited by Don Benoit on 02 December 2001 at 09:18 PM.][This message was edited by Don Benoit on 02 December 2001 at 09:19 PM.][This message was edited by Don Benoit on 02 December 2001 at 09:21 PM.]

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 2 Dec 2001 9:56 pm

Let's say you are just playing on the 4th and 5th strings and you want to raise the 5th string a full step with the "A" pedal. Why would you want to engage the "B" pedal also?

A reason for doing it: On some guitars, the "cabinet drop" is such that if you tune the C# with both pedals engaged, it may be a tad sharp with just the "A" pedal engaged.

A reason for not doing it: That old third string can be bent back and forth just so many times before it breaks. Why bend it more often than you need to?

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Lee, from South Texas

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 3 Dec 2001 9:45 am

I just watched JN's D lever video and he pushes A and B pedals when playing the 5th and 8th string and I have to agree whith what he says. It's just easier, that's all. Also, if you were planning to play only two strings ie 4 and 5 and you accidentally hit 6 or three, you won't hit an "off" chord.

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 3 Dec 2001 6:29 pm

If you engage a pull that is not being used, then that is a resolved note that hasn't been played. In other words, Save that other pull, cause the very next bar you might could use it in passing to set yourself up for the next change, or as a melody note. There are limitless possibilities. I agree with what Donny said. I personally don't depress or engage anything unless I'm using it. Regards.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2001 9:36 am

If you lower your E's on LKR, it's a bit awkward to use it with just the "A" pedal. I lower mine on RKL, and I sometimes do it with just the "A" pedal to get a 69 chord.

The "B" pedal gives you the b7th of the chord. Whether you press it or not should depend on whether the music calls for a 7th chord, not on the ergonomics of it. You need to train your "muscle memory" to hit any combination of pedals and levers as required by the music. I'm sure Joe Wright has a course for this.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 4 Dec 2001 4:54 pm

Good question! I was thinking about asking about this some time back. Interesting that there are divergent views. For me it's usually enough if at least some respectable players do something the way that seems natural to me. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 04 December 2001 at 05:22 PM.]

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 4 Dec 2001 10:10 pm

Don, Like Bob, I never did like lowering my E's on the left knee. I lower them on my RKL. As far as using the A and B pedal, I don't lift my foot at all, my heel stays anchored in one place and I roll my foot for the A or B alone or both. I don't engauge both except when I am using them, I think the 3rd string is only good for so many pulls before it fails, so I don't step on it except when I use it !! My setup is a little different, My RKR raises My 4th E to F#. Good Luck !!

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Dec 2001 10:03 am

I used to lower my E's on LKR, and I would often push both pedals when I only needed one. It was easier to do. When I moved the lever to the right knee, I broke that habit.

There are plenty of times when musically you wouldn't want to hear the 6th string raised. For example, when you're playing over a G chord at the 6th fret. The first pedal gives you the G note, and the knee lever gives you an A (okay, that's in the scale), but the second pedal makes an Eb on the 3rd and 6th strings which is in another key entirely. You normally want to hear the D note on those strings.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
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Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 5 Dec 2001 10:55 am

Like you said Bobby, it's a bit awkward if you have you lower your E's with LKR. As far as playing a G on the 6th fret, for me that is an AF position with the F on LKL and I rock off the B at the same time that I am engaging the F lever. Is it wrong?

Of course there are situations where I only play the A pedal ie to get augmented and minors.

The answers so far are from people having the E's lowered on the right knee. According to surveys that I have read, most people lower their E's like I do...with LKR. I would like to hear from these people.

Also Bobby, I would like to hear why you changed you E lower position.[This message was edited by Don Benoit on 05 December 2001 at 10:56 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 5 Dec 2001 4:53 pm

Don mentioned Jeff Newman, and how he often pushes both pedals. Now we're talking about which knee lowers the E's. I've never seen a Jeff Newman video, or met him, but in the copedent section of Winnie Winston's book I seem to remember that he raises and lowers the E's on the right knee. Is that still the case?

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 6 Dec 2001 9:27 pm

He lowers the E's on the right knee

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 7 Dec 2001 5:51 am

Jeff also uses Day pedals. But I don't think the setup makes any difference in regard to your habits good or bad in excess pedal / knee lever movement. My E's are on my LKL and LKR for the half raises and lowers, but then I have a 4th string E raise a whole tone on a RKL inside lever. I used to have my E's all on my right knees. But regardless of the location, I don't engage a pull until I need it. I'm not saying that it is SPECIFICALLY wrong to engage pedals that you're not using,

I just don't prefer to do that. I used to do that, but broke myself of the habit. Best Regards

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 7 Dec 2001 12:04 pm

I was just watching Jeff's "PSG Techniques" video, and one of his guitars is apparently set up for BOTH Emmons and Day setups. He uses it to show either way of rocking in the 1st or 3rd pedal, whichever the student has set up as "A" on his. Later on in the video, he's using the Day setup just to play around though. (that's the 3rd pedal as "A", right?) Then he teaches to use the "D" lever (RKL?) to lower the 8th string. That picked with 5 on the 10th fret makes A, right? I think I'm starting to get the hang of this...

Garnett[This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 07 December 2001 at 12:09 PM.]

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 7 Dec 2001 4:01 pm

You would be correct if you are saying string 5 and string 8 at the 10th fret (with 8 lowered by 1/2 tone) is A major (minus the 5th). It doesn't matter about the location of the pedals and knee levers as long as you know what their functions are.

You might check out different copedants here on the forum to get more info on Day vs. Emmons pedals.

Regards.>p>[This message was edited by Bill C. Buntin on 07 December 2001 at 04:15 PM.][This message was edited by Bill C. Buntin on 07 December 2001 at 04:16 PM.][This message was edited by Bill C. Buntin on 07 December 2001 at 04:17 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 7 Dec 2001 6:05 pm

I probably play like Donny, and only use the pedal that's necessary to do whatever it is I'm trying to do. At least most of the time.

But I am not really aware of it. My feet are sort of on autopilot. It's like Bobby said- Muscle memory. I think of a chord position and my feet are there. I think more about bar placement than pedal work.

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 8 Dec 2001 2:59 pm

I uasually depress both pedals Because:

1) Tunning problems..... There is a difference in the tuning of a string if you depress only one pedal, if you press BOTH pedals,the tuning for that string goes flat !!

2) most often, unless we are playing a "squeese pedal" kind of a note, the next note will be in the closed position also,so why not depress both pedals ???

3) This problem generally dosen't present itself with the Knee levers. As we don't use "split-pedal" single notes too often,I wouldn't worry about perfecting the tunning of these levers.

Just my 2cents

[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 08 December 2001 at 03:01 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Dec 2001 9:38 pm

Bobby's right...many lower the E's with LKR, and that just seems awkward. But if any regular pedal combination seems awkward, maybe you should rethink your setup.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Dec 2001 11:25 am

Don asked:

Also Bobby, I would like to hear why you changed you E lower position.

I noticed that Paul Franklin and Tommy White both lower their E's on the right knee, so I asked about it on the Forum. It turns out that it gives you this really quick full-step change in the "F" position (3 frets above the root). You release the F lever as you engage the E lever. The changer responds more quickly and more smoothly than releasing the F and then engaging the E.

Now that I've changed it, I "can't live without it".

Of course, the added benefit is that the A+E combination is every bit as comfortable as A+F. I don't have any reason to press the B pedal when I don't need it.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
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Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 10 Dec 2001 11:46 am

I can echo that, b0b. My first steel was an Emmons and had the E to Eb on LKR; I really had a hard time sometimes learning to play on that, I felt like I had to bend my leg in strange ways for certain combinations. My second steel incidentally had it on RKL and it felt a lot better immediately. I´ve kept it like that ever since; I don´t EVER want to go back to LKR. Just because it works for Buddy E. doesn´t necessarily mean that it works for me, right?
To go back to the original topic, I don´t engage a pedal or knee lever when it´s not needed, especially not the B pedal. I guess the main reason is, as has been stated before, to reduce 3rd string breakage, but it also seems a bit like "better technique" to me (just my personal idea.)
Regards, Joe H.

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 10 Dec 2001 12:47 pm

Lately I have been avoiding pushing the B pedal unnecessarily. It's not that difficult to adapt moving the left leg over after lifting up on the A pedal althogh it requires two distinct moves. I don't think that I will move my E lever to the right knee. Like Lloyd Green says...Don't move lever after you get used to them especially that I have been playing that way for 15 years. All in all, I can see advantages of lowering the E's on the right knee but you have to learn to operate the volume pedal smoothly while engaging the E lever which is used quite often.
Thanks for all the comments on my post[This message was edited by Don Benoit on 10 December 2001 at 12:48 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Dec 2001 6:02 pm

I hear ya. I switched it to RKL after 20 years of playing with it on LKR. The first year after the switch my reflexes were all shot, but the new licks were exciting enough that it was worth it to me. Now I'm all settled in. The only time I get confused is when I play old instrumentals that I memorized.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)