Barry Harris concepts on C6 (C6=Am7=Fmaj9) (Cm6=Am7b5=F9)

[Joseph Carlson]

Just noticed another cool thing about the C6 neck that relates to the Barry stuff.

For background, any given diminished chord, you can lower any note and it becomes the root of a dominant 7th chord. Barry calls them the related dominant 7ths or brothers and sisters.

For example C# dim = C# - E - G - Bb

So lower the C# to C and you get a C7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C - E - G - Bb

Lover the E to Eb you get an Eb7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C#(Db) - Eb - G - Bb

Lower the G you get an F#7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C# - E - F#(Gb) - Bb

Lower the Bb you get an A7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C# - E - G - A

Where this gets interesting is that on the C6 pedal steel you can get any of the 3 other 7th chords in the family at the same fret as any other other member of that dominant family.

[Fred Treece]

If you raise any note of a dim7 chord by a half-step, it becomes a m6 chord. Not as cool as that raised note becoming the root, but still kinda cool. You probably noticed that when doing your Cm6dim chord scale chart.

Also, getting back to the OP, and the title, specifically. It seems more sensible to say it Fmaj9=Am7=C6 and F9=Am7b5=Cm6. Look at the letters, they spell F-A-C, the 1-3-5 of an F major triad. Way easier to remember, even though we are speaking of a rootless F chord.

[Steven Golding]

...My only complaint about the system is that it emphasizes consonant sounds (lowering 7s to 6s), which get pretty dull and predictable on guitar once you get all the positions down. My solution for this is to use Major 7 on occasion instead of Major 6 and to throw in some voicing I picked up from the Mickey Baker book.
Thanks again,

My two cents: I would disagree here. BH does not emphasize any particular chord type. The alternating 6th and diminished chords are a starting point or reference point. The idea is to simplify knowing where the notes are. Playing full diminished and 6th chords in sequence is playing in "parallel". If you listen to Barry Harris play, he does not sound at all dull. He is 'borrowing' diminished notes at least as much or more than he is playing straight diminished voicings. If you watch some of those videos on YT of his classes, he mentions more than once that he plays things all the time that he has never played before. Granted that is mostly indicative of how skilled he is. But he demonstrates how those notes relate to his system.

This is an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1siDXQ ... kgaGFycmlz

In BH land, a Major 7 is simply 'borrowing' one diminished note.

Btw what you are doing, playing what you want to hear is the goal no matter what 'system' you are using. BH would probably approve?

Respectfully, if you read what I wrote and what you quoted, I do not at any point say Barry is a dull player. I did not mean to imply that, and perhaps dull is not the best choice of words.

My statement comes from my perspective as a guitarist who has casually studied this method for the past 4 to 5 years and is, furthermore, a total novice jazz musician.

I mean that while the BH method is liberating and endless, I still play many of the same 4 note drop 2 and 3 chord shapes through tunes, and it gets pretty boring sometimes. Now I realize it's related to my knowledge of the method and overall chord vocabulary. Etc

Lately, I have made an effort to read my way through Allen Kingstone’s book. I actually had a light bulb moment the other day playing with the “brothers and sisters” concept at a jam. Even with only drop 2s and 3s, you get some nice movements over bars. (For example, CMajor6 = A minor 6 and Minor 6.) So yeah, it's getting less “dull,” I guess.

[Joseph Carlson]

OK, I had today off work, so I finally had a chance to chart up the remaining two chord types, Dom7 and Dom7b5.

I don't think I have 100% grasp on the Dom7dim6 scale, I don't really use it much, preferring the 9th sound you get from using a min6 chord.

Dom 7 Chords.png

And of course the 7b5 is a good example of how a tritone sub works, in that B7b5 = F7b5 and so on.

Dom 7b5 Chords.png

[Bill McCloskey]

I've just started with the Barry Harris theory for Guitar book and since I have a Universal, I thought I'd map out where the C6major diminshed scale and the C6minor diminished scale lay out on the Universal. Turns out nicely:

[Daniel Morris]

Bill, I also play Universal 12 string steels.
Could you post your open string pitches, and what RKR does?
I'm thinking we have 2 separate tunings. Mine is E9/B6, 8 + 5.
Thanks.

[Bill McCloskey]

sure. I had a slight cut and paste error on the dim with the F on the bottom. Fixed.

[Daniel Morris]

Thanks, Bill. Mostly looks the same as my copedent.
However, what threw me is the first box of the C minor: you show string 3 as Eb, string 4 as A, etc. Is that right?

[Bill McCloskey]

Pedals 1+2 plus RKR gives the following open strings:

F#
C#
A
D#
C#
A
F#
D#
C#
A
E
C#

on the 6th fret we have:

C
G
D#
A
G
D#
C
A
G
D#
A#
G

Cminor 6th diminished Drop 2 with the root in the bass is

C G A Eb

Those are strings 3, 4, 5, 7 on the 6th fret.

Do you see a mistake? The numbers above the boxes are the fret number

[Daniel Morris]

Yes, I see a mistake - mine.
Sorry, Bill, and thank you.

[Bill McCloskey]

LOL. You had me second guessing myself. I went over it 3 times to make sure I was right. I won't have the guitar until tomorrow so I couldn't physically try it yet.

[Daniel Baston]

Respectfully, if you read what I wrote and what you quoted, I do not at any point say Barry is a dull player. I did not mean to imply that, and perhaps dull is not the best choice of words.

My statement comes from my perspective as a guitarist who has casually studied this method for the past 4 to 5 years and is, furthermore, a total novice jazz musician.

I mean that while the BH method is liberating and endless, I still play many of the same 4 note drop 2 and 3 chord shapes through tunes, and it gets pretty boring sometimes. Now I realize it's related to my knowledge of the method and overall chord vocabulary. Etc

Lately, I have made an effort to read my way through Allen Kingstone’s book. I actually had a light bulb moment the other day playing with the “brothers and sisters” concept at a jam. Even with only drop 2s and 3s, you get some nice movements over bars. (For example, CMajor6 = A minor 6 and Minor 6.) So yeah, it's getting less “dull,” I guess.

I can relate to your point here a lot. I always feel like I end up playing the same stuff. Practicing seems to expand this core repertoire pretty gradually, except for those rare lightbulb moments (like the one you describe).

Maybe I should have said it a different way. Barry's method accounts for all 12 notes in the scale. There is no limitation to the types of chords that can be derived from it. He has his own way of organizing the notes that is arguably logical, but also arguably idiosyncratic. If using BH's method, the key to going beyond fixed voicings is to explore his 'borrowing' concept. Any possible combination of notes can be had that way and his method of scales suggests movements from those chords, no matter how wacky they are. That's the real beauty of his method IMO. Finding chord voicings is one thing, but moving in between them with harmony requires less 'thinking' with BH's method (not as many scales to learn etc). When practicing, BH's method suggests ways to move harmonies around. Worth mentioning, for me at least, when 'actually' playing, I tend to play what I have rehearsed for better or worse. All of this heady stuff is for the practice room.

The 4 note voicing thing is another point that I can relate to. I find that on steel and guitar, that playing 2 or 3 note voicings can sometimes sound more interesting, because it allows you to imply more movement. 4 note voicings have a nice full sound, but on steel/guitar the possibilities for voice leading sometimes are limited by the physical constraints of the instrument. If you do play smaller voicings, when you do hit on a 4 note voicing it almost has more weight. Similarly, if you are playing a passage of mostly larger voicings, if you throw in the odd smaller voicing in between the bigger ones (because of physical constraints on the neck), the ear often doesn't really miss having all of the notes all of the time. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but is kind of what I have been thinking about lately.

Another point is that BH is playing piano, he's got the whole orchestra at his fingers. When playing guitar, steel trumpet whatever, it really helps to play with other people. Or to record some chords to play over. Or use backing tracks etc. This stuff, especially rootless voicings and partial voicings, comes to life when you have the bass notes underneath. That moment you describe at the jam sounds like a good one. That's exciting stuff, those moments.

[Daniel Baston]

Just noticed another cool thing about the C6 neck that relates to the Barry stuff.

For background, any given diminished chord, you can lower any note and it becomes the root of a dominant 7th chord. Barry calls them the related dominant 7ths or brothers and sisters.

For example C# dim = C# - E - G - Bb

So lower the C# to C and you get a C7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C - E - G - Bb

Lover the E to Eb you get an Eb7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C#(Db) - Eb - G - Bb

Lower the G you get an F#7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C# - E - F#(Gb) - Bb

Lower the Bb you get an A7 chord

• C# - E - G - Bb becomes C# - E - G - A

Where this gets interesting is that on the C6 pedal steel you can get any of the 3 other 7th chords in the family at the same fret as any other other member of that dominant family.

Very cool!

[Tim Toberer]

For anyone who is thinking the 6th diminished sound is cool, but still seems to be limiting, here is another extension of the concept. Instead of starting with the 6th chord, you start with the Maj7 chord and you get a different harmonized scale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euHpQhMOE6k
This sound really opens up the harmonies especially when combined with the 6th. I hear Ed Bickert, Pat Methany etc. more modern sound for sure, but cool extensions. I believe Chris Whiteman is also a former BH student. Great channel, I am into his Dominant Diminished video now. It is kind of mind blowing how these concepts all flow together.